remindmeofthe | (no subject)

Today I hung out with my mom and sister and introduced them to Doctor Who. We watched "The Empty Child," "The Doctor Dances," and "Blink," because I can't think of three better episodes to show to people who haven't seen the show before.

The best part was toward the end of "The Doctor Dances," when the Doctor tells Jack, "Close the gate!" And Jack, being the cooperative and intelligent individual that he is, goes, "Why?" Mom: "What do you mean, why? Just do it!"

And then we made fun of Jack on the drive home. She's seen a bit of Torchwood before and wants to see more of it (it was "Something Borrowed," luckily enough, and yes, I have warned her about the show's relative quality), so I explained to her that Jack never actually gets any smarter: "Yeah, he's always doing shit like, you know, introducing nanogenes to a planet. The show wants you to think he changes, but he doesn't."

And dude, he really doesn't. Well, he sort of does. He gets worse. The major difference between the nanogenes and some of the shit he pulls in Torchwood is that at least the nanogenes were an accident. But whatever, because if Jack weren't a total bastard who the show (either show, really) tries so hard to paint as a selfless hero, he just wouldn't be so much fun. And I have been rendered incapable of taking him seriously anymore, anyway, so it's all good.

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I've been told by, like, three different people just today that I *need* to see Doctor Who >.> Where do you get yours? And can I get it from you, or from your source, or what?

I just totally agree with everything you said above. Jack is quite a good bit of fun, but...he does get worse, LOL

He just gets awful, doesn't he? The staggeringly creepy not-so-sub subtext of his drugging Gwen's drink in the middle of a bar in "Everything Changes" really pretty much sets the tone for him. Don't get me wrong, I can't be arsed to get outraged about such things in Torchwood (the people who freak out over Owen's alien sex spray make me roll my eyes so hard, like, it's TORCHWOOD, save the hysteria for a show that actually means something), but "How's your drink?" was so blatant, there's no way that wasn't intended. And his behavior just goes downhill from there.

My favorite thing is how the only time we've ever been invited to question his decisions, as opposed to the writers insisting that Jack is Right Dammit, is in "Small Worlds," when he gives Jasmine to the fairies (sigh) to keep them from attacking humanity as a whole. Which also happens to be one of the only times when Jack isn't operating out of self-interest, arrogance, or just plain thoughtlessness. Madness.

But as I said - it just wouldn't be as much fun if the show acknowledged that Jack is a bastard.

I confess to only ever watched TW for the fun factor (and a soft spot for Burn Gorman ;) and never much examined it from an ethical point of view, but...yes. Most if not all of Jack's decisions are worthy of discussion.

I think in part the show does put him in a position where he is the one that needs to take the 'nasty' decisions - especially as opposed to the Doctor 'no killing anyone ever* attitude, so yes, he is a bastard, only they try to make him a lovable one, o'so conflicted and broody ../irony

As ~~Spike~~ Captain John said (I think it was him?), "once a con man always a con man"..that says a lot.

Yeah, and that sort of thing I have no problem with. I agreed with him one hundred percent about Jasmine and was really surprised when not a single member of Torchwood appeared to be familiar with the "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" maxim. That's the sort of decision that needs to be made at a place like Torchwood all the time, and it has to be run by someone who can make it.

What I'm talking about is the other stuff. Like in "Day One," when he deliberately chooses to let Carys go rather than have the Doctor's hand destroyed. That choice is the direct cause of another dozen deaths, but the show never acknowledges that. All the responsibility is heaped on poor Gwen, whose only crime was having shitty aim. She made a mistake, Jack made a conscious decision, and she gets stuck with the consequences. Stuff like that happens all the time on Torchwood - Jack has caused so many deaths with his selfish behavior - and he never gets called on it. And we're not supposed to notice, and the result is this insane dichotomy that just adds to the overall crackiness that is Torchwood.

Don't get me started on the stuff with Owen. I kept waiting for a confrontation between them about Jack playing God and it never came. I'm still disappointed.

and he never gets called on it.

Absolutely true *nods*

And never mind the relatively smaller stuff, like in "Out of Time" when he and John (SO MANY FREAKING JOHNS; someday the Whoniverse will have a John Jones and then I will cry) commit suicide . . . in Ianto's car. I would not be surprised in the least if Ianto just went out and got a new one after he heard THAT story.

Yeah but I think half the Gwen getting the blame for Day One is about the female character factor. Still sucks but it's fandom, you know it's gonna happen.

Also I am very annoyed. I'm supposed to be in Torchwood squee mode at the moment (I finally got S1 on DVD) and they pull the finale. Timing. Sucks.

I was talking about canon. Inasmuch as anyone is assigned blame in the episode itself, it's Gwen. Not even a flicker of ANYTHING about Jack letting it get out of hand (heh) the way it did.

Fandom hating on Gwen - yeah, I'm not gonna go there. I have more or less no opinion on her myself, only on how she relates to other characters, but I can see the difference between people disliking Gwen and people disliking Gwen's ebil vagina. I just kind of ignore it.

"Don't get me started on the stuff with Owen. I kept waiting for a confrontation between them about Jack playing God and it never came. I'm still disappointed."

This was really hard for me, coming from the BtVS fandom. I mean, Buffy takes a full season to grieve her own death, and Willow is taken to task for at least a half-season for daring to bring her back. It got old sure, but at least it seemed like a realistic time-frame to process things on an emotional level.

And then on Torchwood, Dead!Owen gets 3 days and Jack NEVER answers for it.

For some reason, Buffy sets the standard for how-to-handle-character-death in my pov. The contrast there... Is a constant hiccup for me!

I may have to extend my drabble extension just so I can have the Doctor rip Jack a new one. I was totally disgusted when I realized that Jack was never going to get called to the carpet for doing what he did to Owen. The others fuck up and get hit with the consequences (usually), but not Jack. "It's been three days" was the moment when I finally figured out that Jack is an asshole, and the writers don't want to admit it. Mind you, considering the extensive toll that involuntary immortality must take on him psychologically, I also assume that he is, on a fundamental level, quite insane, but the show won't touch that either. The way he's written is so frustrating, because he could be endlessly rich and complex, and instead he's just a bastard.