Cathryn (formerly catslash) (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
remindmeofthe) wrote2007-11-25 06:41 pm
remindmeofthe) wrote2007-11-25 06:41 pm
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So I wrote up a response to an ancient post in ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
threetentrain, a 3:10 to Yuma community, which said in part: I have trouble buying Dan as having carnal interest in Wade. Ben/Charlie, yes. Ben/Byron, even- it might fit with Byron's overly-bitter, faux-pious personality, but Ben/Dan is a little more difficult. Latent "I'm staring at you more than I should but will remain in my corner" Dan/Ben would seem very cannon, but I just have trouble with the idea of Dan acting on any such impulses. It just doesn't seem... well, Dan-ish.
My reply mutated and turned into a freaking essay, so I decided to post it here, too.
Dan would never make the first move. I can see him, under the right circumstances, reacting favorably to Ben's advances, but he wouldn't start anything himself. He's too circumspect and loyal, plus homosexual behavior is probably not something that really registers on his radar the way it would today. I think Ben's flirtatious brand of charm ("I like this side of you, Dan" - that delivery was more purely sexual than anything he said to Emmy in the bar!) does get to him, but he pushes it aside because it's wrong to him on a billion different levels and just tries to focus on the job. Connecting with Ben on an emotional level is a concept he can grasp more readily, and it doesn't have that wrongness to it. It's dangerous, sure - he tells William repeatedly not to talk to Ben because he understands the danger in allowing Ben the chance to gain any sort of sway. But, like just about everyone else, he lets Ben engage him in conversation (because it's rude not to! I love that! Everyone talks to Ben when they know they shouldn't because it's rude to ignore someone when they've asked you a question! Ben exploits that social convention to such great advantage that it gives me glee. He knows how to work people, oh yes) over and over until Ben does gain sway with him, and by the end of the movie he's even volunteering information on his own. This is okay in his mind because he is still bent on doing the job.
Plus, there's that question of loyalty. Dan is a steadfastly loyal man who takes his duty to his family, as a father, a husband, and a man, very seriously. Talking with Ben is not betraying him family, or his wife. Sexual contact would be, or it would at least muddy the waters too much. (We must keep in mind cultural context here, and I don't know if male/male sex would have been considered "real" sex, or if it would have been more like a thing that happened. Would sleeping with a man have been as disloyal as sleeping with a woman in that era? I don't know.) But even if sleeping with Ben would, by society's standards, be no more unfaithful to Alice than a few hands of poker, it still seems like something that Dan would take much more seriously on his own terms. For that matter, Alice probably wouldn't be a fan, and he'd know it. Allowing himself to engage in actions similar to those reserved for his marriage bed is not something Dan would take lightly. However, he is not perfect and he makes plenty of slip-ups, and in light of the hold he and Ben have on each other by the end of the movie, I could still see him weakening if Ben timed himself just right. But he would never make the first move.
I don't have nearly as much to say about Ben's interest in Dan. [Note: Upon rereading, this may be a lie.] Because, well, duh. Dan fascinates him right from word one, when he looks Ben in the eye after seeing what he saw and says that he needs his cattle back. He puts far more effort into toying with Dan and provoking his reactions than he does with the others, because the others are boring. He always wants to see what Dan will do next, and he wants to find out how much power he can gain over Dan and what he can use it for. Ben wants power over others but is loathe to give them power over him; that he becomes so absorbed in watching and manipulating that he never notices that Dan, by virtue of Ben's own fascination, is gaining power over him is remarkable and speaks for itself. In the end, when it would be most expedient for him to kill Dan and be safely on his way, he can't do it, because Dan surprises him again, and he needs to see what Dan will do next. I think in that moment, he realizes and accepts that he would like to spend quite some time seeing what Dan will do next. It's the closest I think a sociopath would be capable of to feeling love, and Ben is so very textbook in his sociopathic behavior that I cannot claim he falls in love with Dan, because he's not able. But he does, in his interest, become possessive. His view of people as things cannot change, but Dan becomes a very special thing, his special thing. There is no doubt in my mind that, had Dan survived the movie, Ben would have found a way to return to him after the (inevitable, c'mon) escape from Yuma Prison, and it would be very interesting indeed to see what might happen then. But, as it is, Charlie kills what's his, not long after he's decided that he would like to spend as much time around Dan as circumstances will allow, and his reaction is heartbroken outrage.
Would he jump Dan? Hell, yes. In the life he's lived, he's likely more acquainted with homosexual behavior, and he has none of the moral quandaries that Dan has. The only question would be when. It would have to be a time when it was safe enough to do so without fear of fatal interruption, and he would have to be certain that Dan would respond well. Which brings me to to appeal this ship holds for me: POTENTIAL. This entire relationship is about potential and unresolved tension and things smoldering but not having time to catch. It's made up of "could have beens." Dan's death puts a resounding period on it all, which only serves to introduce complicated emotions and more things that never were. As a ficcer, this captures my imagination because the possibilities are overwhelming. As a slasher, I've come to appreciate the fact that potential can be more gratifying than payoff (I suppose because 99% of the time I have to, heh). Watching those two melt the screen just staring at each other is more than enough for me. I've spent about ten minutes on those last two sentences because it's so hard to explain what it is on a more sexual level that gets me about this pairing. I think it is because it gives me more room to dream up scenarios on my own, and I can make them as explicit or as chaste as I want, and whether or not I write them down has very little to do with it.
threetentrain, a 3:10 to Yuma community, which said in part: I have trouble buying Dan as having carnal interest in Wade. Ben/Charlie, yes. Ben/Byron, even- it might fit with Byron's overly-bitter, faux-pious personality, but Ben/Dan is a little more difficult. Latent "I'm staring at you more than I should but will remain in my corner" Dan/Ben would seem very cannon, but I just have trouble with the idea of Dan acting on any such impulses. It just doesn't seem... well, Dan-ish.My reply mutated and turned into a freaking essay, so I decided to post it here, too.
Dan would never make the first move. I can see him, under the right circumstances, reacting favorably to Ben's advances, but he wouldn't start anything himself. He's too circumspect and loyal, plus homosexual behavior is probably not something that really registers on his radar the way it would today. I think Ben's flirtatious brand of charm ("I like this side of you, Dan" - that delivery was more purely sexual than anything he said to Emmy in the bar!) does get to him, but he pushes it aside because it's wrong to him on a billion different levels and just tries to focus on the job. Connecting with Ben on an emotional level is a concept he can grasp more readily, and it doesn't have that wrongness to it. It's dangerous, sure - he tells William repeatedly not to talk to Ben because he understands the danger in allowing Ben the chance to gain any sort of sway. But, like just about everyone else, he lets Ben engage him in conversation (because it's rude not to! I love that! Everyone talks to Ben when they know they shouldn't because it's rude to ignore someone when they've asked you a question! Ben exploits that social convention to such great advantage that it gives me glee. He knows how to work people, oh yes) over and over until Ben does gain sway with him, and by the end of the movie he's even volunteering information on his own. This is okay in his mind because he is still bent on doing the job.
Plus, there's that question of loyalty. Dan is a steadfastly loyal man who takes his duty to his family, as a father, a husband, and a man, very seriously. Talking with Ben is not betraying him family, or his wife. Sexual contact would be, or it would at least muddy the waters too much. (We must keep in mind cultural context here, and I don't know if male/male sex would have been considered "real" sex, or if it would have been more like a thing that happened. Would sleeping with a man have been as disloyal as sleeping with a woman in that era? I don't know.) But even if sleeping with Ben would, by society's standards, be no more unfaithful to Alice than a few hands of poker, it still seems like something that Dan would take much more seriously on his own terms. For that matter, Alice probably wouldn't be a fan, and he'd know it. Allowing himself to engage in actions similar to those reserved for his marriage bed is not something Dan would take lightly. However, he is not perfect and he makes plenty of slip-ups, and in light of the hold he and Ben have on each other by the end of the movie, I could still see him weakening if Ben timed himself just right. But he would never make the first move.
I don't have nearly as much to say about Ben's interest in Dan. [Note: Upon rereading, this may be a lie.] Because, well, duh. Dan fascinates him right from word one, when he looks Ben in the eye after seeing what he saw and says that he needs his cattle back. He puts far more effort into toying with Dan and provoking his reactions than he does with the others, because the others are boring. He always wants to see what Dan will do next, and he wants to find out how much power he can gain over Dan and what he can use it for. Ben wants power over others but is loathe to give them power over him; that he becomes so absorbed in watching and manipulating that he never notices that Dan, by virtue of Ben's own fascination, is gaining power over him is remarkable and speaks for itself. In the end, when it would be most expedient for him to kill Dan and be safely on his way, he can't do it, because Dan surprises him again, and he needs to see what Dan will do next. I think in that moment, he realizes and accepts that he would like to spend quite some time seeing what Dan will do next. It's the closest I think a sociopath would be capable of to feeling love, and Ben is so very textbook in his sociopathic behavior that I cannot claim he falls in love with Dan, because he's not able. But he does, in his interest, become possessive. His view of people as things cannot change, but Dan becomes a very special thing, his special thing. There is no doubt in my mind that, had Dan survived the movie, Ben would have found a way to return to him after the (inevitable, c'mon) escape from Yuma Prison, and it would be very interesting indeed to see what might happen then. But, as it is, Charlie kills what's his, not long after he's decided that he would like to spend as much time around Dan as circumstances will allow, and his reaction is heartbroken outrage.
Would he jump Dan? Hell, yes. In the life he's lived, he's likely more acquainted with homosexual behavior, and he has none of the moral quandaries that Dan has. The only question would be when. It would have to be a time when it was safe enough to do so without fear of fatal interruption, and he would have to be certain that Dan would respond well. Which brings me to to appeal this ship holds for me: POTENTIAL. This entire relationship is about potential and unresolved tension and things smoldering but not having time to catch. It's made up of "could have beens." Dan's death puts a resounding period on it all, which only serves to introduce complicated emotions and more things that never were. As a ficcer, this captures my imagination because the possibilities are overwhelming. As a slasher, I've come to appreciate the fact that potential can be more gratifying than payoff (I suppose because 99% of the time I have to, heh). Watching those two melt the screen just staring at each other is more than enough for me. I've spent about ten minutes on those last two sentences because it's so hard to explain what it is on a more sexual level that gets me about this pairing. I think it is because it gives me more room to dream up scenarios on my own, and I can make them as explicit or as chaste as I want, and whether or not I write them down has very little to do with it.