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Okay then!

Dear Torchwood,

Are you or are you not a show about aliens? Because what with the demons, zombies, and now ghosts, I'M GETTING A LITTLE CONFUSED.

If I want the supernatural I'll watch Supernatural,
Cathryn

Though, to be fair, this episode sucked so hard that maybe it WAS about aliens. Lord knows the MotW didn't make any sense. They are images that were trapped on film! And they were always evil! And they appeared out of nowhere - no, wait, sorry, out of the rain! And the one chick is a mermaid!

And okay, if they were apparitions that appeared during rainstorms to collect souls or whatever in the guise of travelling performers, and then ~~video killed the radio star~~ cinema killed the travelling show, what happened? If they were apparitions, why wouldn't they keep appearing anyway? If they were something a little less ethereal, did they just fail to adapt? I can work with the idea of images on old film being like ghosts (I think I first saw it in an Animaniacs or possibly Tiny Toons parody of Field of Dreams actually), but not if the subjects of the images were already ghosts. Pick a story, Torchwood!

Either way, though, they could be killed by filming them and exposing the film. Fine, okay. Except then they tried to make it science-y and I just don't know, this episode sucked out loud. I hardly expect Torchwood to make sense, because it, like, doesn't, but it is capable of sufficient storytelling logic to keep me from going, "Wait, what?" every two minutes.

I don't even feel like dissecting character stuff because the episode was too dumb. I won't even get on Jack for his continued douchery in re: Owen. I will, however, laugh at the show for going from Jack hating the idea of sending Owen into a physically dangerous situation, to Jack grudgingly allowing Owen to volunteer for a physically dangerous situation, to Jack sending him into one without a second thought within the space of three episodes. I thought it would take at least four. (One could argue that Jack sent Owen up because of Owen's whole not having a last breath of life to steal thing. To which I say that Owen still could have gotten hurt, and he was limping down the stairs as it was, and OH MY GOD THIS EPISODE SUCKED AND MADE NO SENSE. This is why I wasn't going to get into character choices. Because they all sucked and made no sense.)

This is only the third episode that I've found unwatchable on the first viewing, which, for a show of such dubious quality, is pretty damn good. The other two were "Cyberwoman," which actually proved to be pretty damn funny when I made myself sit through it again, and "Adam," though I seem to be in the minority there. Appropriately enough, I do believe that the nurse or whatever in this episode was played by the pizza girl from "Cyberwoman."

Brief aside - why the fuck does all the good canon backstory come from shitty episodes with this show? "Cyberwoman" remains Ianto's only major (onscreen) character development. "Small Worlds," which was okay on the first viewing but bored me to death on the second, had Estelle, one of the few substantial parts of Jack's history that this show has gone into. And now we have "From Out of the Rain," which, incoherent as it was, managed to dole out another solid piece of information about Jack's past. Why is the show making me choose between learning about the characters' lives or watching enjoyable television?

In conclusion, a show like this is a crapshoot and sometimes you lose big.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Also, did you notice that Owen's bandaged, broken finger wasn't bandaged anymore? Did Jack jizz Magical Continuity-Buggering Healing Jizz on it or what?

Small Worlds annoyed me enough the first time around, I can't imagine what sitting through it a second would do. It is an odd dichtomy on TW, this dividing up between plot and backstory, as though the two were mutually exclusive. I'm trying to think of other TV that's quite that bad and only managing to come up with a whiny desire for the old, completely mad Troughton-era Dr Who episodes.

I wasn't really paying attention to Owen's bandage, because I knew perfectly well that they would fuck that up eventually, but I did see one shot where it was clearly in place and another where it wasn't there and Burn Gorman was trying to hide his bare hand. If I cared enough to fanwank this ep, I'd say something about how Owen must get sick of that damn bandage sometimes and consider just amputating. It would be more efficient.

I'm not even getting into Owen taking that chick's pulse. They were gonna screw that up, too, and next they'll have him get hurt and then the injury will disappear, and this is why I went right ahead and preemptively created my own mental version of zombie!Owen with consistent rules that I am sticking to no matter what canon fucks up.

The only reason I didn't turn off "Small Worlds" halfway through the second time is because, frankly, I'm a stubborn completist. If I am going to rewatch the first series, I am going to rewatch the ENTIRE FIRST SERIES, and that means ALL of it. I may have minor issues. But hey, what a surprise that the same guy wrote both "Small Worlds" and this ep. It is probably also not a coincidence that they are also both supernatural episodes that try really hard to act like alien episodes. So annoying. I can pretend that Zombie!Owen is an alien situation if I am very careful not to think about it too closely, but I really can't pretend that fairies and ghosts are anything other than fairies and freaking ghosts.

My god, if he noticed that you'd think he'd have bothered the make-up/costume guys. And what the HELL. When we were shooting a tiny little sodding short in the pub we had someone for continuity making sure ... god. They don't have continuity guys at the BBC? FOR SHAME.

Good point! I failed to notice why that was complete poppycock. Having said that, I have my own zombie character whose state of liveliness fluctuates but I did make a *point* of saying that it fluctuates, so that it's not "oh, this is convenient, now he can take pulses" as though no one without a medical degree could do that.

Aha - I am the very opposite of a completist. I am prone to putting books down half-way through or turning TV off the very second I get annoyed with it. I'm sure I've missed a lot of good stuff that way!

I really can't pretend that fairies and ghosts are anything other than fairies and freaking ghosts.

Well quite - especially if they're not explained as anything else! They could have been energy signitures or a different race or projections from another dimension but no! They simply go "fairies and ghosts" as though it were bloody Buffy.

My god, if he noticed that you'd think he'd have bothered the make-up/costume guys.

I can only assume it was some sort of time-saving maneuver. TW wouldn't exactly be the first show to skip something like that when they think they can get away with it. I mean, you wouldn't think it would take long to apply, but whatever. I'm feeling surprisingly generous and willing to overlook it.

as though no one without a medical degree could do that.

Heh. I can't. If I were to rely on my ability to find my own pulse, I'd be forced to conclude that I was dead. Maybe the rest of Torchwood have the same problem. ;)

I'm sure I've missed a lot of good stuff that way!

Maybe, or maybe not. It is my experience that once something gets annoying, it stays that way. I just get grimly determined and refuse to let it win. See: my insistence on sticking out the entire last season of Buffy. "Oh, shit, Buffy's on in a few minutes. I wonder how bad it's gonna suck this week." And I refused to skip it.

could have been energy signitures or a different race or projections from another dimension but no!

Agh, I know! Of course, the attempt to pretend that the MotWs this week were two things at once didn't help. I would have bought that the Night Travellers were aliens, OR I would have bought that the escaped film versions of them were the result of exposure to alien tech or some damn thing, but I cannot buy both at once. And don't even get me started on the "from the beginning of time" explanation from Jack about the freaking fairies. Would it really have been that hard to say "ancient race of aliens that I refer to as fairies out of habit because of arguments with Estelle over their exact nature"?

I guess so, and I should probably cut them some slack, but I can't see how it would take *that* long. It's not like prosthetics!

You've just prompted me to check for mine. I can't find it in my neck, but my wrist is nice and strong. Yay for absurdly high blood pressure.

Of course, the attempt to pretend that the MotWs this week were two things at once didn't help.

I really think it would have helped to ease the confusion if they'd stuck to one story or to the other.

Would it really have been that hard to say "ancient race of aliens that I refer to as fairies out of habit because of arguments with Estelle over their exact nature"?

YES. YES. Most of these things could be so EASILY hand-waved and yet they never bother to do so! GGNNN.

Most of these things could be so EASILY hand-waved and yet they never bother to do so!

GAH I KNOW. And with Torchwood, I learned real fast to just let these things go, because all it really has to offer is a good cheesy time, which I would miss out on if I obsessed over the flaws. But after the let-down of such a crappy episode, I don't freaking feel like letting things go. (Except the Magical Disappearing/Reappearing Bandage, apparently. It's truly random what does and doesn't bother me sometimes.) It's so much easier to dwell on and be annoyed by sloppiness and laziness when the show has disappointed me and left me hanging for a week.

For example, I had a whole discussion with a friend about how Jack will never be as compelling and complex a character as he should be because the writers have no idea what the hell to DO with a character cursed with involuntary immortality and they can't be arsed to figure it out. RAR. And don't get me started on the complete failure to address Jack's culpability for Owen's situation and any, you know, thoughts or feelings that either of them might have about that. There's still time to touch on that, but I'm not holding my breath.

Jack will never be as compelling and complex a character as he should be because the writers have no idea what the hell to DO with a character cursed with involuntary immortality and they can't be arsed to figure it out.

Which is just disappointing because the correct response is "what wouldn't he do?" and ... oh ... he doesn't put himself in danger enough. I think that knowing he can't be killed would inform his behaviour and -

Jack's culpability for Owen's situation

YES. I think ... well for a start Owen's been a lot more forgiving that one would expect of anyone, never mind anyone with Owen's personality ...

Yes! Plus, there's the whole thing where Jack has been forced into dealing with things that the human mind was never meant to cope with. By our standards, he's probably quite insane. Psychologically and emotionally, I don't really see how, at this point, he can bear much resemblance to the average human being. The fact that he's not a rubber room candidate is pretty impressive, but he's extensively damaged and irrevocably fucked up and, as my friend pointed out, the show thinks it can play with the results of that without getting into the causes. And it's so frustrating, because an honest character study would be incredibly fascinating.

Owen's been a lot more forgiving that one would expect of anyone

Seriously. But then, Jack is constantly doing cruel things to his employees and getting away with it. The only one who ever seems to call him on his shit is Gwen. Part of the unofficial code of Torchwood Three seems to be that Jack does what he thinks is right/necessary and the others just suck it up and accept it even if he's hurt them in the process. Either this is more laziness from the writers or we're supposed to think that Jack is always right. Either way, it really makes him look like an asshole and the others look like borderline Stockholm Syndrome sufferers. Not that any of that makes Owen's silence on the issue any more in character for him, but fuck if I've got anything to explain THAT.

And on the flip side, I would think that, fucked-up psyche and all, Jack might feel maybe just the TINIEST bit badly about what he's done to Owen? Maybe just a smidgen of guilt in there somewhere about condemning Owen to an existence that manages to be even more nightmarish than his own? No? OKAY THEN. I'm pretending that the guilt is too crushing for him to cope with and he's repressing, because while I do think he's an asshole I don't think he's a complete sociopath.

Psychologically and emotionally, I don't really see how, at this point, he can bear much resemblance to the average human being.

Magical healing Doctor powers, I suppose. It *is* frustrating - I'd like to see him fuck up more and be called on it more, I'd like to see someone (Martha would have been perfect) point out to him that his omnicognisence act is inherited from the Doctor and with little foundation, I would *cheer* to see him laid open as a fundamentally MASSIVELY FLAWED individual with an addiction to conflict and a compulsion towards ... well. Someone who overhauled his entire personality in order to make the Doctor proud of him probably has some Daddy issues, that's all I'm saying.

Either this is more laziness from the writers or we're supposed to think that Jack is always right.

Which is again toss, because he is *not* the bloody buggering Doctor. I note also that Gwen is never called on her fuck-ups, but Owen and Tosh are consistently getting their noses rubbed in theirs. You'd think Jack would at least apologise for having unleashed the walking spectre of death upon Cardiff, or that someone else might have called him on it. The body count relating to his fuckups does seem to be going up and up and up, and yet they're getting LESS mutinous than they were in S1! I think Stockholm Syndrome may well be the only explanation.

I'm pretending that the guilt is too crushing for him to cope with and he's repressing, because while I do think he's an asshole I don't think he's a complete sociopath.

Indeed - or it's a hangover from Old Jack, the variant the Doctor first encountered, who didn't seem to give a crap what he was unleashing on the people of earth. Kind of a John Hart-lite.

I would *cheer* to see him laid open as a fundamentally MASSIVELY FLAWED individual

Yes plz. I buy him overhauling himself in the image of the Doctor, partly consciously and partly subconsciously, because he was waiting for the Doctor to show up for like a hundred fifty years and was just a tad obsessed, but the show in no way acknowledging that is frustrating. Oh, and let us not forget his raging control issues. Everything at Torchwood is fine and hunky-dory, as long as Jack gets his way. Question Jack and you have yourself a major problem. Gwen only gets away with it regarding Rhys in "Meat" because she has leverage and she's not bluffing.

And hey, even the Doctor is wrong sometimes. Not that Jack could ever acknowledge that. I'd like to see the Doctor's reaction to watching how Jack runs Torchwood for a week or so. He'd be like, "And this is different from before how, exactly?" And then Jack's world would dissolve, and I would be okay with that.

You'd think Jack would at least apologise for having unleashed the walking spectre of death upon Cardiff, or that someone else might have called him on it.

Well, at least THAT has been established from the beginning. The deaths from the sex alien are all laid entirely at Gwen's feet when all she really did was have bad aim, but you'll note that the majority of Carys's kills happened after Jack deliberately chose to let her go rather than have the Doctor's hand destroyed. Nobody ever said word one about that, though. That speaks volumes about Jack right there, doesn't it? He has so completely lost perspective about finding the Doctor that he doesn't even blink when a dozen innocent men die because he prioritized the Doctor over, you know, protecting humanity from a homicidal alien. Of course, he finds the Doctor and promptly gets stuck in a year's worth of a hellish timeline that shouldn't exist, which just strikes me as some lovely karma.

or it's a hangover from Old Jack, the variant the Doctor first encountered, who didn't seem to give a crap what he was unleashing on the people of earth.

I'd argue that Old Jack had a stronger sense of morals than Current Jack. At least he had the grace and lack of selfishness to be horrified when the Doctor forced him to see what he'd done. And he was willing to sacrifice his life - back when it was still an actual sacrifice - to save others. Current Jack has lost all sense of what life is. He talks about saving lives, but does he still even know what that means? Maybe he acts like he does about Owen because he genuinely doesn't see the difference. Owen's still up and walking around, so what's there to apologize for?

Edited 2008-03-16 21:03 (UTC)

Oh, and let us not forget his raging control issues.

Good Christ, yes. There needs to be more about that. Where's the power struggle? Why does everyone just roll over for him?

Not that Jack could ever acknowledge that.

I'd like to see Jack see one of the Doctor's fuck-ups and how he deals with the idea that the alien he idolises is fallible.

He has so completely lost perspective about finding the Doctor that he doesn't even blink when a dozen innocent men die because he prioritized the Doctor over, you know, protecting humanity from a homicidal alien.

Again, I really think more needs to be made of that. I notice he doesn't mention any of it when he meets up with the Doctor again, the sad obsessive little man. :D

which just strikes me as some lovely karma

Excellent point, but it seems to have made him even more self-righteous on occasion.

And he was willing to sacrifice his life - back when it was still an actual sacrifice - to save others. Current Jack has lost all sense of what life is. He talks about saving lives, but does he still even know what that means?

I sit corrected. That ... yes, I do think he's lost his perspective of what it means to be human. I had hoped that he'd learn that from Owen's little moment in the cells, but he just HAD to know better.

Where's the power struggle? Why does everyone just roll over for him?

I'm thinking it's because he's a scary fucker. I don't know about you, but I would never feel entirely safe sharing a room with Jack Harkness. Even if it was a pub and he was across the room from me and never actually noticed my existence. Each of the team has seen his brutal side up close, and they've seen how swiftly he'll turn it on one of them if they get out of line. Step out of line at Torchwood and you'll have a very big problem very quickly, but the second you knuckle under and accept Jack's rule, all is well again. (See: Ianto. That's the only reason I can think of for Jack to be so cool with him so fast after the Cyberwoman incident.) Torchwood is dangerous enough without going around pissing Jack off.

I notice he doesn't mention any of it when he meets up with the Doctor again, the sad obsessive little man.

Yeah, I'm thinking the Doctor would not be impressed with some of Captain Jack's shenanigans. I wrote a drabble (http://catslash.livejournal.com/359864.html) touching briefly on that, actually, which I've been wanting to expand on a little.

I had hoped that he'd learn that from Owen's little moment in the cells, but he just HAD to know better.

I started yelling at the screen during "Day in the Death" when Jack was all, "How long is this going to go on?" That was what confirmed my growing suspicions that a flaming asshole was living behind all that charm. There are just so many things that are so utterly wrong with that. He's the one person who should be anywhere near understanding what Owen is going through, and instead he's the coldest to Owen of all of them. That was a really, really telling moment for Jack.

Torchwood is dangerous enough without going around pissing Jack off.

So he really has been taking lessons from the Doctor. It occurred to me this morning that I don't know how seeing what the Doctor did to The Family would have affected Jack's view of him - would he have continued to hero-worship him? Would he have been appalled? Would he have been surprised?

Oooh, neat drabble. Something that I'd like to see explored in more depth, I think. The Doctor basically looking over Jack's fuck-ups and going, "hrmm... you're not really the man I'd hoped you'd become".

I think it was an unconscious mirroring of the Doctor, again - the Doctor up and left abruptly because of Jack being An Impossible Thing, and Jack's kind of taking the same course even though - as with the Doctor and Jack's bizarre immortality - it is kind of his fault. Only moreso in this instance. I appear to be gibbering.

a flaming asshole was living behind all that charm

;) IME, only assholes *need* to be charming.

Would he have been appalled? Would he have been surprised?

Hmm. I think perhaps it depends how long he'd been immortal and how long he'd been waiting. He had a long time to idealize the Doctor and put him on a precariously high pedestal. After a certain point in Jack's timeline, the Doctor could probably go around setting puppies on fire and Jack would find a way to justify that.

The Doctor basically looking over Jack's fuck-ups and going, "hrmm... you're not really the man I'd hoped you'd become".

That would be interesting, wouldn't it? I really wish I felt more comfortable writing the Doctor, because that would be an intriguing fic to write.

I appear to be gibbering.

These things happen. *g* That's a really good point, though, I hadn't thought of that. Unlike the Doctor, though, Jack can't go anywhere, so he doesn't just reject responsibility for Owen once, he does it every day. And Owen has nowhere else to go, so he pretty much has to suck it up and bury his anger along with everything else he's buried to stay sane.

Depressingly likely. I wonder if the people around Jack would accept with as much ease, or whether they'd get a case of the Fool and point out that hey, the Emperor is in fact stark bollock naked ... one wonders what Jack's reaction to that would be.

I feel ... reasonably comfortable writing the Doctor, but alas not comfortable writing full stop until my bloody laptop comes back from the Laptop Doctor. Currently writing yet more "how does Jack square himself with Ianto's cyborg-hiding ways" fic in a bloody notebook does not compare. *scowl*

Oooh, yes, yes he does. I'm semi-hoping for future explosions from Owen, but I also have a nasty feeling they might nix his character by the end of the series (NB: I haven't been reading spoilers, it just seems like a very End of Series thing to do with a dead man).

one wonders what Jack's reaction to that would be.

Oh, boy. I can just imagine Jack getting all tense and super-defensive of the Doctor. He knows what he's doing, he did what he had to do, he's got just a little more experience in these things . . . eventually, even the Doctor would be like, "You know, I am occasionally less than perfect." And you know how likely that is. Martha would be all, "Mark your calendars, guys."

*wills your laptop to get better and hurry back to you* Lord knows fanfic is the only way THAT mess will ever have a prayer of making sense.

Yes, GOD I want Owen to give Jack a good dressing down for being a God-playing bastard, but yeah. He's going to have to do it pretty quick because I will be immensely surprised if he survives beyond 2x13. I mean, it's either that or bring him back to proper life, because there is nowhere else to go with him as his story stands right now. (I'm also putting imaginary Internet money on Rhys croaking. Building up a tertiary character and making him hugely awesome is never good news.)

And pointing a lot and shouting "YOU DON'T KNOW HIM LIKE I DO". Ker-ist. It'd be like an episode of sci-fi Jerry Springer.

Martha would be all, "Mark your calendars, guys."

Thank you for reminding me yet again how much I adore her.

I think I should start keeping a list of things in the Whoniverse I need to write fic about in an attempt to make them make sense, instead of perpetually writing "What happened after 1.04 to make Jack stop being enraged with Ianto".

I'm also putting imaginary Internet money on Rhys croaking.

*claps hands over ears* NO. NO. NO. PLEASE NO. This will cause the eventual implosion of Torchwood: Jack will leap on Gwen after an indecently short interval. Ianto will leave Torchwood, possibly killing someone on the way out after having had his brain suitably broken, if not his heart. And as everyone knows, Ianto Jones is the backbone of Torchwood Three. It will go collapseyboom without him. D:

Thank you for reminding me yet again how much I adore her.

Martha makes everything awesome.

"What happened after 1.04 to make Jack stop being enraged with Ianto".

Yeah, speaking of which, I read the latest one while I was half-asleep before going to bed, and then I had zappy torture dreams. Congratulations, you have written the first fic that has ever made its way into my dreams. I suppose in a way the praise doesn't get much higher than that.

And as everyone knows, Ianto Jones is the backbone of Torchwood Three. It will go collapseyboom without him. D:

It so will. I wonder how it even functioned before it had a Ianto. He won't be alone, though, Tosh and Owen will see it coming and be all, "Cheers, it's been fun," and follow him out the door. Jack and Gwen will be too busy shagging to attend to the Rift, and the Doctor will eventually have to show up and save the world in a much put-upon manner.

Bwah! I don't know whether to thank you or apologise profusely!

I like that version of events in a sort of spiteful and melancholy fashion. If the finale turns out to be a damp squib or destroys my faith in humanity (again) I may write that damn fic just to get it out of my system.

Heh. I thought you might like that.

I've got my fingers crossed for something completely insane that just makes fandom implode, like Ianto turning out to be evil or something. That would be eighteen shades of awesome.

NO WAIT EVEN BETTER. Ianto should turn out to be GRAY. :D

I need to stop with the wild speculation (of the spoiler-free variety still; I am determined to avoid them until the finale) because I'm just going to end up bitterly disappointed.

Edited 2008-04-01 06:51 (UTC)

As long as Ianto doesn't *die* or get crap lines ...

OMG YES HE SHOULD. THAT WOULD MAKE ALL FIC RETROSPECTIVELY INCEST FIC AND THEREFORE 90000% TIMES HOTTER. *cough*

You know they'rwe going to manage to screw it up somehow. Vive la Torchwood writing team.

OMG I KNOW. And there's no need to cough at me, dude, I watch Supernatural. Brothercest is positively VANILLA to me. God, it would be so much fun to watch all the fluffy Janto (I use the portmanteau to mock!) shippers implode and explode simultaneously. That would make my entire MONTH.

But - yeah. What I want: Glorious scifi cheese and Evil!Gray!Ianto. What I expect: Melodrama that inspires John Barrowman to new heights of Overfucking Doing It, permanently!dead!Owen, and probably ditto!Rhys. So I guess I better have my fun while I can.

Oh gods bless SPN. I may not be able to get into it, but it does seem to be spreading the 'cest disease faster than Jack dissappating syphillis through the centuries. And that would be *awesome*. We'd find out that Ianto was adopted when he was a little boy and had suppressed all the memories of being missing after blah blah and Jack'd be all "nooooo, I've been fucking my broth - oh well, 51st Century standards apply. SEXYTIEMS". And Ianto would have an identity crisis which lasted all the way up to the blowjob.

Melodrama that inspires John Barrowman to new heights of Overfucking Doing It, permanently!dead!Owen, and probably ditto!Rhys.

Let's not forget Gwen Gets Captured For Really Stupid Reasons and Tosh Is Criminally Underused. Also the probability of a pointless Deus Ex Machina, a failed plot twist, or anything else from the Whoniverse drinking game.

I loved finding SPN fandom in part because it was nice to know for a fact that my father/son incest-fic kink would only be slightly unusual instead a perversion requiring heavy warnings and disclaimers. YAY. Of course, the price to be paid for this is having to tread very, very carefully in a fandom that makes Torchwood fandom look a sane and serene place of love and brotherhood.

oh well, 51st Century standards apply. SEXYTIEMS

And the others are just like, ". . . we have the weirdest boss ever." And it never really comes up again.

The pointless Deus Ex Machina will probably have something to do with the DW series arc, too, so let's not forget to throw an incomprehensible cliffhanger into the mix. Sigh. Obviously you and I should write our version of the finale and ignore whatever happens onscreen.

*uses filial incest icon* Hah, I remember

derryderrydown telling me that in a fandom where incest was the norm she *still* managed to annoy people by being in favour of the "niche" pairing.

And that's one of the reasons I try to remain OUT of fandoms where possible - because no matter how small and reasonable they seem at first, they become BATSHIT. Even Band of Brothers fandom manages to be batshit.

Obviously you and I should write our version of the finale and ignore whatever happens onscreen.

I second this motion. Ours will almost certainly be better.

Heh. I have, like, four of her fics in my memories for that very reason. Well-written John/Dean is heartbreakingly rare, so you gotta grab it when you can find it. I was delighted when I got into Torchwood and discovered she'd written a bit for that, as well.

because no matter how small and reasonable they seem at first, they become BATSHIT

I KNOW. One of the happiest, most harmonious fandoms I've ever been in? Harry Potter slash fandom when it was just, JUST starting out circa 2000. I'm not even kidding. I think I got distracted by a shiny object and wandered off about five minutes before the batshit hit the fan. I haven't gone near it for years. It terrifies me.

Ours will almost certainly be better.

It is about two-thirty in the morning here, I am in that state of fuzzy consciousness where you can't type and don't know why the fuck you're trying because it's okay if you go to BED, and we could still bang something out right now in the comments that would be almost certainly be better. Except we won't, because I really should go to bed.

What do you look for in a John/Dean fic? A friend of mine, knowing I'm into filial incest almost as whole-heartedly as fraternal, has taken to reccing John/Dean and John/Sam fics to me, most of which I haven't been reading because I don't know the fandom, and she can generally be relied upon to have good taste in these matters.

Hah, I discovered Harry Potter slash fandom just after the first film came out in the UK - so about early 2002 - and it was already exploding. *I* stayed out of it, and indeed pretty much most fandoms except BmB (which was quite insular), but I lived with a girl who was much more involved and OY the drama, the drama.

Except we won't, because I really should go to bed.

I do rather hope you *went* to sleep at this juncture. Although if you didn't and ended up scrawling something on the ceiling in chicken blood or something, it'd probably still be a better episode of Torchwood than the finale's going to be.

:D Such an optimist.

What do you look for in a John/Dean fic?

Oh, god. This is such a complicated question. (Because the fandom is batshit, that's why.) The thing is that John is a very divisive character - he's a good man, but not the kindest father by a long shot, and there's a tendency by a rather substantial chunk of fandom to vilify him, with the end result being that the majority of John/Dean (there is very, very little John/Sam) is non-con horribleness. I am not a fan. What I look for is fic that acknowledges John as a man who does the best he can by his sons, while all the while being a very fucked up individual because of how his wife died and probably also a nice case of PTSD from fighting in the Vietnam war. I put together a supernatural fic rec post (http://catslash.livejournal.com/352345.html#cutid2) a while back that includes some of my favorite John/Dean, plus there's more in my memories under "fic" if you care though plow through. I really should organize those.

I do rather hope you *went* to sleep at this juncture.

I did! Eventually. And it's late again, but I don't have to get up so early and I'm trying to fit in "The Sound of Drums"/"The Last of the Time Lords" before the premiere, which my work schedule is making complicated, so here I am. Not quite as fuzzy as before. Or something.

I am going to savor every moment of anticipation tomorrow, because it's totally going to be the best part ~~plus I'm hoping that the more I trash talk the finale in advance, the more the universe will decide to prove me wrong~~.

Oh Torchwood. D:

My reaction (http://catslash.livejournal.com/368313.html#cutid1) summarized: HAHAHAHAHA what.

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